CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, the discussion revolves around the Cavs' strategy as they approach the playoffs, focusing on their championship mindset and the importance of resting players.
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Takeaways:
- Dean Wade’s versatility allows him to play multiple positions effectively.
- De’Andre Hunter’s arrival has changed the dynamics of the Cavaliers' roster.
- Evan Mobley’s offensive development is crucial for the team’s success.
- The Cavaliers' offensive strategy has diversified this season compared to last year.
- The Cavaliers are focusing on both winning and player management as the playoffs approach.
- Kenny Atkinson’s influence is evident in the team’s improved ball movement and overall player development.
- The Cavaliers' ability to adapt their game plan is key to their playoff success. The Cavs are confident in their championship potential.
- Player rest is strategically planned based on data and science, mainly having decisions made by team doctors and management.
- Tanking remains a significant issue in the NBA.
- March basketball often leads to unpredictable outcomes.
- Rebuilding teams face unique challenges and pressures.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And again, joining me, the three-headed GOAT, Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins, alongside with myself, coming to you guys on Thursday afternoon, leading up to another game for the Cleveland Cavaliers. This time, Chris Fidor is all the way in Arizona. We will not.
get into travel stories because today was uneventful. Just a little bit of a delay for Chris Fidor. So that’s a little bit less on the funny side. I don’t want to get into those stories because we do have questions from our subtexters to get into for another rendition of Hey Chris. So we’re going to get into those questions right now. First one coming in from San Francisco.
Anu says, as residents of Dean Wade Island, of which I am as well, how would you assess his recent play and potential playoff impact, best matchups, and conversely, risk of losing a playoff rotation spot? I know this has been really interesting because he’s been up and down as of late, especially over the last couple of games during the Cavs losing streak, but Chris, what do you think about Dean Wade and obviously being the Mayor?
of Dean White Island. know that you’ve had some hot takes on him earlier this season, but I also want to get the question of you where, how does DeAndre Hunter’s acquisition impact Dean Way’s importance for this Cleveland Cavaliers team?
Chris (01:50.456)
I certainly think it lessens it, guys. I mean, I just don’t think the Cavs have to rely on the same kind of way. I don’t think he becomes as much of a necessity, especially in a seven game series against Boston. The advantage that Dean had over every other wing that was on this roster is he was taller than them, he was bigger than them, he was stronger than them. He had the kind of size that Isaac Okoro does not, that Max Struce does not, that Karras Levert did not.
So Dean gives you an ability to play the 3, 4, and 5, 5 in certain lineups if you want to go small, and Deandre has that same ability. So it just gives Kenny Atkinson another option. He can play both those guys together, or he could go with whoever is playing better defensively, whoever is playing better offensively. I don’t think Dean is just going to vanish from the rotation, because they need his defense, because they need his floor spacing, because he does help them.
in a variety of different ways. But if DeAndre Hunter is playing well and he’s making a contribution and he’s making the kind of impact that he was brought here to make, it just lessens the importance of Dean. In saying all of that, he remains one of their most impactful defenders. He is a 97th percentile defender. He is a better rebounder than DeAndre. He’s a better rebounder than
you know, a majority of the guys that could get minutes at that particular spot. So I just think even though, you know, he has kind of seen his minutes decrease here since the arrival of Deandre, that was a natural thing that was going to happen. And there are going to be certain matchups, especially against Boston, where the Cavs are going to rely more on Dean. And he just has to stay ready. He has to stay confident.
and he has to understand that his time is going to come and he is an asset to this team.
Jimmy Watkins (03:55.701)
glad you brought up the rebounding there, Chris, because I think that was something we kind of overlooked with the De’Andre Hunter trade. think it’s a great value. It’s been a great payoff so far. think he obviously raises the ceiling of this team in many different ways. But it’s also just like we talked, I think one of the first things Kenny said is the first thing he noticed about him, man, he’s big. He’s broad-shouldered. He’s long. He’s tall.
Chris (04:03.278)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (04:21.687)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (04:25.193)
for his career, he grabs 3.4 rebounds per game, 4.9 per 36 minutes. Like that’s kind of a head scratcher. It’s a little bit of a head scratcher. I don’t know. I’m not gonna venture to guess as to why that is because I haven’t looked at it enough since he’s been here, but it’s not something I love. And I think when we’re talking about Deandre Hunter as this...
Chris (04:28.461)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (04:52.117)
I promise I will talk about Dean Wade, but when we’re talking about DeAndre Hunter as this like secret weapon that unlocks this final boss version of the Cavs, right? And that’s true in a lot of ways. He’s the stretch four who you’re not playing so small with on the other end defensively, right? But rebounding is an important part of that. The Cavs are as is. I haven’t checked in a while, but they usually hang around 19th or 20th in defensive.
rebound rate and that’s while playing two bigs a decent amount of the time. So when DeAndre Hunter goes in there, you’re at risk even more. For some of these, I mean, it’s not as popular strategy in the playoffs, but teams will exploit that if they see that as a way to try to poke holes in the Caps final boss lineup, right? So that’s just something that I think is worth monitoring. To the Dean Wade point, what I would say about Dean Wade before yesterday,
in evaluating his play was not shooting enough. And it’s one thing to be missing shots. It’s another thing to be not shooting enough altogether. the, let’s see, where’s my basketball reference page? In the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven games before the Sacramento Kings game, which was very encouraging to see. Dean Wade had 12 points, hit four threes, super reliable, even though they lost. He was taking basically two threes a game.
in 17 minutes per game, the previous seven games, with a couple of goose eggs in there. And that’s, again, it is one thing to miss shots, but if you’re not taking them, that’s when teams start to feel comfortable just leaving you all alone, and that’s a big problem in the playoffs. So it was good to see Dean hoist them and make them yesterday. And I do think, I’m a little bit torn on my De’Andre Hunter’s impact on Dean Wade, because I think Dean Wade can be a player where like,
the less I think needing him less can be a good thing for his confidence, right? Like there’s not as much pressure on him to perform in 20 minutes and there would be an, you if they need him to play 30 minutes every night against Boston, that’s a very different equation. But on the flip side, if they don’t need you, they can pull the hook on you a little bit quicker. I do think for the most part, his positional size is going to be tough for Kenny to keep on. We’re talking mostly about a Boston something series here because they’ve got to.
Chris (07:18.008)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (07:19.369)
big wings who can do stuff. And I think we’ll see a lot of Dean and DeAndre playing together, or at least one of them on the court most of the time with an Evan Mobile or Jared Allen in these situations. And then Isaac Kikoro, we’ll talk about him as it pertains to those guys too. But it’s an interesting thing, because again, I think Dean can get that confidence bump from getting something to take off his plate. But if you start having some games like you’ve been having recently where you’re not shooting enough threes,
Chris (07:25.198)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (07:48.863)
Kenny Atkinson can’t afford to leave you out there. So that’s my two cents.
Chris (07:53.464)
think Kenny is struggling a little bit, guys, with how to best use Deandre and how to best figure out this rotation with so many wing options. And obviously there’s a hierarchy here involved and there’s a pecking order of who’s better and who’s more impactful and stuff like that, right? But when you’re talking about the role players, the guys beyond the Core 4 plus Deandre Hunter, you know, Kenny’s struggling with this.
I talked to him before the game a couple of nights ago and I asked him a question. said, you know, you have played DeAndre a majority of his minutes at Power Forward. And I totally understand that the NBA game is positionless and fours and threes are basically interchangeable, but it matters in terms of lineup construction and it matters in terms of trying to fit guys in pairings and stuff like that. So.
The majority of minutes that De’Entre is playing is the four. And Kenny said part of the reason for that, number one, he likes his skill set with one other big. He likes his skill set with one other big more than he likes his skill set with two other bigs. But the other thing is that is his best path to getting Isaac Okoro consistent minutes.
That is his best path to getting Max Druse the kinds of minutes that he wants to get Max because Max creates so much gravity because he’s such a great cutter.
because there’s continuous movement and flow on the offensive end of the floor when Max is out there. And it’s just like when you have so many different options and many of them are two slash three as opposed to three slash four, the way to game it a little bit is just take one of those options that’s a three slash four and make him primarily a four. So I think Kenny is still trying to work through all of this, especially when it comes to Deandre.
Chris (09:52.954)
And yes, in one sense, DeAndre’s versatility and DeAndre’s willingness to play whatever position Kenny wants to put him at, whether it’s come off the bench, start, whether it’s three, four, maybe it’s a five, whether it’s playing alongside Ty Jerome or not alongside Ty Jerome. Like DeAndre is a blender and it doesn’t matter to him. like having a guy like that that can fit a bunch of different ways.
and help you in a variety of ways, that’s a good thing. But I don’t know that the way that Kenny is specifically using DeAndre recently, I don’t know that that’s the best for DeAndre. And I’m not convinced that it’s the best for the Cavs either.
Ethan Sands (10:41.914)
And Jimmy, I wanted to go back to your point about Dean Wade just for a second. I think you’re absolutely right. It’s actually a point that I made after last night’s game about how he was actually taking shots rather than just standing out there and using him as a defensive specialist. Right. And another player that we haven’t talked about yet on today’s podcast that I mentioned yesterday, Sam Mero, who has kind of the similar experience throwing up a goose egg when you’re primarily known as a shooter. That’s to me not acceptable, especially when I guess
a team like the Sacramento Kings where you become a liability on the defensive end. At least Dean Wade can get away with saying, I’m at least going to help out defensively. Sam Barrow is going to get attacked. And we’ve talked about different lineups where we’ve seen two guys that are necessarily not the best or liabilities on the floor at the same time, mostly mainly talking about Darius Garland and Ty Jerome, those two guys.
haven’t been on the floor a whole lot together. Kenny, can say likes to go with Donovan and Ty. I kind of felt like Donovan and Ty were getting attacked last night, right? When you see Ty Jerome giving up the ball, coughing up the ball in the back corner, trying, barely getting it up the floor. I think these are different elements that teams are going to try and look to exploit in the playoffs. And again, this is just a three game losing streak. We’re not.
throwing our hands up and saying this is gonna be the end all be all of the playoffs. But I think there’s definitely necessary things to look at when we talk about this playoff team and how they’re going to be able to get past certain opponents that now have a blueprint potentially for what could be the ways to disrupt their offensive flow that has been so potent this season.
Jimmy Watkins (12:26.761)
I would say from that point.
Chris (12:27.342)
I think it’s one thing to have a blueprint, but I also think you have to have the personnel that matches. Like we’ve talked so much about the Cavs and their personnel in certain matchups against certain teams, but it’s like other teams have to have the kind of personnel to match up with the Cavs too. And that’s not an easy thing to do.
Jimmy Watkins (12:45.461)
And to the ball pressure point, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that two of these are the two times it sticks out of my head that the Cavs have struggled with ball pressure last night against the Kings. And then the Pacers loss, which was that the first loss of the season? Pacers loss? I think in both of those cases, was early in the season. I’m not going to say it was, was earlier in the season they lost the Pacers and it was last night they didn’t have Darius. And the Pacers game, were they missing tie?
Chris (13:11.405)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (13:14.669)
The idea I have, know they were missing somebody, but the idea is you lose a ball handler, you put more on the existing ball handler’s plates, you’re making some of these guys play more minutes, and that’s why it’s, I think sometimes the ball pressure looks like it’s a better weapon against the Cavs when they are under manned against it.
Ethan Sands (13:38.052)
I think that’s, that’s a fair point. and obviously not having all three ball handlers, can weigh on a team. But I also think you can look at the Los Angeles Clippers game and where both tie or all of tie Darius and Donovan had at least two turnovers in that contest. And obviously Kawhi Leonard is a pest when it comes to point of attack defense and might be, an anomaly in that case, but I don’t think you. He was so good. Yeah. Agreed.
Jimmy Watkins (14:01.791)
She was so good at that game. That was so fun to watch.
Chris (14:04.077)
He was.
Ethan Sands (14:07.282)
Alright, so getting into the next question coming from Lloyd from Mayfield Heights. says, when I go to NBA.com stats and it shows the effectiveness and frequency of play types for the team, isolation, transition, pick and roll, ball handler, et cetera, I don’t see much difference between this year’s Cavs and last year’s Cavs, but this year, their offense is way better. Is this because of just players are playing better and healthier?
or something in the scheme. Jimmy, want to start with you to see what you’ve seen as the main difference of this cows team, even if the numbers aren’t necessarily pointing in a direct direction.
Jimmy Watkins (14:51.453)
I think it goes to two. I think Kenny deserves a ton of credit for this on on two friends. We can play it. We can play the health game. All three of the core four at play or at or around 60 games right now. So that’s part of it. We’ve had none of Donovan, Evan, Darius or Jarrett miss four to six weeks like both Darius and Evan did at the same time last year. Donovan is not. Well, we could talk about what’s going on with Donovan. He’s had a weird stretch here, but he’s not.
having the same kind of wear down, wear down effects, wear down signs that he was this time last year. They’re not having to force him to take, four or five games off of it. When they were battling for seeding, they could have really used him in those games. So that’s part of it, sure. Health always matters. But I would say the way that Kenny has diversified their offensive portfolio, the different ways that they can get into offense,
the way that they blend sets together. love, I’ve just been watching, I think of Max Struce and the way that they’ll run Max Struce off the ball, give him the ball and then right into a pick and roll. Like Max Struce as a guy who’s just dribbling and sizing the guy up, running a pick and roll, maybe not your guy. Max Struce is a guy with a head start running a pick and roll. Very sound decision maker, capable passer who can make plays, who can make the nice pocket pass.
So I like that. But ball and body movement. But really I think it’s the thing, more than anything, mean Donovan and Darius, beyond health, we’re gonna be Donovan and Darius. It’s the thing that we were talking about at the very beginning of year. It’s George Niang saying, I don’t feel like every shot I take is gonna be determining whether I come out or not. Just think about all the guys who seem to have new life.
this year, Sam Merrill, new life. Ty Jerome, not fair, not fair, because Ty Jerome wasn’t healthy, but yes, I Ty Jerome would have been this guy under JB Bickerstaff. Really? I don’t, I don’t. I’m not sure he would have gotten the opportunities to be this guy. I really don’t. So that’s half the battle right there is making everyone feel like.
Jimmy Watkins (17:18.677)
I can do, I can be me. And that’s a hard thing to do on a basketball court because everyone has such a stark belief in themselves. But this thing needs to work. This thing doesn’t work if we’re not all sacrificing. Does that make sense? Like that’s two pretty tight needles to thread right there. And of course the biggest player in all of this is Evan Mobley’s offensive leap. we’ve heard forever.
Chris (17:37.495)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (17:48.725)
from the Cavs, from Donovan, from JB, Darius. Evan can do this. I remember talking to Isaiah Mobley at Media Day 2023, and I was just asking him, how much can Evan do in a pickup game that he doesn’t show us on the court? And Isaiah was like, there’s not a single thing that that guy can’t do on the basketball court. So, okay, so why doesn’t he do it then, right? It’s basically just.
Chris (18:12.59)
Mm.
Jimmy Watkins (18:17.993)
There’s a certain comfort level that you need to be able to try stuff in a game. lot of do, I’ll hand up. You put me on a, I’m gonna shoot around superstar. I can make five, six threes in a row. You get me running out there. I start getting tired. People start counting on me. I don’t know, lights get a little bright at the YMCA in there. And this is the NBA we’re talking about. Mobley. Evan Mobley has just.
I’ve said before, I’ve blown away by all the progress he has made in one season, shooting the ball, playmaking, all the things that everyone told us he could do, but he’s now been empowered to do. And part of that is Kenny and Donovan working together. Donovan, you know, making concerted effort to get him the ball when they play together, stuff like that. But a lot of it is just this mystical Kenny magic that he has and has always had that
Kenny Atkinson tells me I can do something. I think I can do it.
Chris (19:20.834)
Yeah, I not only for that point anymore, I think we’ve touched a lot on that when it comes to Kenny and his ability to empower players and get them to believe in a different kind of way. I’ll just look at the stats stuff and I totally understand what people are talking about when they look at these things. But this is going to be a pick and roll heavy offense as long as Darius and Donovan are here.
Like no coach would come in here and go away from that because they are elite pick and roll players. And this is a pick and roll game. The NBA is a pick and roll game. so that is going to remain a staple of, of the Cavs and there is going to be a high frequency of pick and roll stuff. But it’s about what happens within that set. It’s about what other counters they have, what other actions are going on.
alongside of that. This isn’t just a stagnant top of the key pick and roll. Every opponent knows that’s what the Cavs are going to do. Every opponent knows that it’s going to be Darius or Donovan calling for a screen using either Evan Mobley or Jared Allen and just trying one specific action. It’s not that. It’s
all these other things that are happening within that. It’s the random cutting that is also going on. It’s the continuous movement that’s going on. To put this in perspective, the calves are number one in the NBA and points per possession on cuts. There’s an art to that. There’s a science to that. There’s spacing, specific spacing and timing involved with all of that.
The Cavs were not number one in the NBA in points per possession on cuts last year. They were outside the top 10. So that’s something that’s different as well. Where Evan Mobley is spaced on the floor, that’s different from last year. The way that the pick and roll is happening with certain guys who are setting the screen, that’s different this year. Isaac Okoro’s screen setting is up from last year by close to 50%.
Chris (21:35.726)
because he’s not just camped out in the corner asked to be a wallflower. He’s being more involved in the offense. Max Struce, his screen setting is up. Sam Merrill, his screen setting is up. So it’s how the Cavs go about these pick and roll situations. It’s what the Cavs are doing within that particular set and other actions that are happening off the ball and stuff like that.
Evan Mobley as a pick and roll ball handler that is way more advanced than what it was last year. So it’s just there’s not as even though the frequency of the Cavs with the pick and roll is still high in the NBA and they’re still top five in that. It’s the way that they’re going about it. It’s the variation of these looks and these play calls and these sets.
It’s a level of unpredictability that is built into this offense because of the random cuts and stuff like that. That to me is where you feel like that Golden State influence that Kenny has brought here.
Ethan Sands (22:38.106)
Yeah
Ethan Sands (22:44.882)
body movement, The Vier actions, the slot cuts, all of the, I’ve had to learn so much just looking back at the highlights, I’ve had to learn so much more basketball knowledge of like the plays that are actually being ran and necessarily the fun part about it is they’re not always plays, it’s just the principles and them having such high IQ of when to cut, when to set something up and just.
The vocabulary gets very nerdy when you start like the page, like all these things that not a lot of the regular fans around the NBA understand. And it’s also just Kenny Atkinson implementing all these things. It was funny at the beginning of the season when we just started seeing the actions being ran and it was like, remember when Kenny Atkinson had his third base?
Coach went on windmill trying to send people up the court now Let’s get the ball out of their hands and get the ball up the court just like in baseball Just like in softball the ball will always move faster than feet So I just think it’s the bigger picture the actions that we’re getting to see and the nuances of the game Have grown a whole lot this season Chris and Jimmy. I think you’re both Absolutely, correct. It’s the little things. It’s not necessarily the numbers. There’s not necessarily all these things. It’s just
how these players are operating under Kenny Atkinson. And of course, we give him a lot of credit and he deserves it. He is the front runner for coach of the year, but we also have to admit that there have been times for the, for the recent part of the season where he’s made questionable decisions. And me and Chris talked about that in our, in the podcast before this one yesterday, but I want to get into the next part of this.
Jimmy Watkins (24:31.125)
Can I put a bow on that point real quick? I think that marries what all of us were saying there. So it’s the schematics and Kenny magic, whatever. In some ways, the schematics are the Kenny magic. So you think about Isaac Koro not being a wallflower. There’s such a massive difference between pick and roll happening and I’m just standing here waiting for the ball, spacing the floor, allegedly. People are guarding me, so I’m not really spacing the floor. Just standing here waiting and...
me as a screener, I’m involved in the play, I feel like I could get the ball at any moment because legitimately I could. I think that’s that idea right there, the idea that people are, if you’re cutting instead of waiting, just, and then obviously someone has to give you the ball to validate that and that’s part of what they’re doing as well. But there’s just such a massive difference in mentality when you feel like you’re in the play, even if you don’t.
Ethan Sands (25:25.776)
and connecting sports like Kenny Atkinson has done all season. It’s like a wide receiver. Like you always have to be looking for the ball just in case it comes your way, even when the play call isn’t necessarily for you. going into the next question, this one coming from Ben Y from Akron, he says, with the March coming to a close, it’s March 20th when we are recording this podcast, he says, when do you expect the starters to start getting significant amounts of rest?
down the stretch of the season here? Will it be in April? Once we secure the one seed in the East, will we start resting more players for the second halves or even entire games? Chris, know you have a better insight on this and we’ve talked about the Cavs to go after the record, which is 66 games, one in a regular season for the franchise history, they want to get to 67. That is still within reach even though the 70 game work no longer is.
What do you sense is going to be how this Cavs team does? Are they going to ramp up? Are they going to ramp down? What’s the plan?
Chris (26:30.562)
Well, people aren’t going to like to hear this and I totally understand why fans don’t like when teams approach it this kind of way. But there is a truth here involved with the Cavs. Winning is not their sole purpose down the stretch of the season. It’s not. Like they are not in a situation where it’s win at all costs. They are not in a situation where it’s chasing wins, chasing a seed.
Avoiding the play-in tournament. It’s not going to be that way. They are not going to operate like that as a team. They believe in what they have here. They believe that they’re a championship contender. They don’t think that any of that will change down the stretch. So they’re going to continue to rest guys. And I don’t think it’s going to be a situation where it’s like, my God, the entire starting lineup is sitting one night.
You know, that might happen on fan appreciation night. Hey, the fans, thanks for coming out. Get to watch Tristan Thompson play 35 minutes. Let’s go, Monty Bates. Woohoo! Fan appreciation night, yay! But, like, for the most part, it’s just going to be very similar to what the Cavs have already started doing. I mean, they’ve basically started this since the All-Star break. Just find...
A certain game that is logical for somebody to get a rest night or somebody to nurse an injury or somebody to get extended recovery time in between games or whatever the case may be. They have a six game cushion on the Boston Celtics for first place in the Eastern Conference and they’re going to take advantage of that. There is a big picture plan in place and they are not going to go away from that. No matter what happens, they could be on a five game losing streak.
They could lose every single game on this road trip and it’s not going to change how they view things down the stretch of the season. It’s not going to change that Kenny Atkinson is going to experiment with things, with lineups, with combinations, with end of game situations, with end of game lineups, with end of game play calls and sets and stuff like that. It’s just the situation that they have put themselves in. They can operate
Chris (28:50.496)
in a different way than the Milwaukee Bucks. They can operate in a different way than maybe the Atlanta Hawks, who’s trying to get out of a play-in spot and get one of the top six. Whoever you want to bring up, they have given themselves the ability to do that, and they are going to take advantage of it because they think it’s going to be beneficial. So, you know, if you start looking at the schedule and you’re trying to figure out when these guys are going to play and when they’re not,
You know, the Utah game being a 3.30 afternoon start, which is actually going to be, 1.30, I think. Is that how the timing works out with that one for the Cavs on Sunday afternoon? I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s a spot where somebody may be quote unquote, rested going into the road trip finale against Portland. There’s a home road back to back.
right as soon as the Cavs get back from this extended road trip. They play San Antonio wounded, short-handed San Antonio at home. Then they have to go to Detroit the next game for the final game against the Pistons on the road. You know, don’t be surprised if that turns into a rest night. There’s a back-to-back.
against Indy and New York, both of those games on the road. Don’t be surprised if that turns into a rest night. So I don’t think it’s going to be a situation where like, okay, we’re just going to sit everybody all at once. But Darius, Ty, maybe DeAndre, Donovan for sure, given the groin thing that he’s still working through.
know, Evan Mobley, basically anybody but Jared Allen, because Jared has a goal of playing all 82 games, and I do think Kenny’s going to honor that and respect that. They might game it a little bit. It might be fewer minutes than anticipated in some of these games down the stretch, but anybody could be eligible for a quote unquote rest night.
Chris (30:51.563)
especially as we go down the stretch of this season. So expect to see like random times where guys are just ruled out, whether it’s with an injury designation or with rest.
Ethan Sands (31:03.494)
To be very clear, the Cavs cannot just have multiple star players out with rests. There has to be an injury designation or something, and that’s also kind of gaming it a little bit. managing an injury, that’s also considered a rest day and all those things. But just for the Phoenix Suns game, I think a lot of fans who know the background between the owners could have expected, everybody as-
Right now on the injury report for the Cleveland Cavaliers is available except for the three two-way guys Nick Montal and Luke Travers and Imani Bates But that means that the Cavs are going full-throttle trying to end this three game road trip or three game losing streak I apologize With a win and then heading over to Utah for that next game, but the last
Chris (31:54.018)
The other thing too is that there is science involved and there’s data involved. And there are a lot of people involved in making these decisions and the calves have all of these different metrics that they look at. And when somebody gets out of the green and into the yellow or close to the red because of the workload that they’ve had recently, because of the physical exertion metrics that they keep track of and all those things, they rely a lot on the science to tell them when they feel like it’s the best time.
to get somebody this rest night. And they felt like based on the way that the schedule was set up the other night, coming off the game against the Clippers, they felt like based on all of the numbers that they had and all of the different science that they were looking through, that it was best to get Darius the rest night, last night against the Sacramento Kings. So it’s not a situation where it’s like,
You know, we really, really want to win this game or we think it’s beneficial for us to play all of our guys against this specific matchup. It’s, okay, what makes the most sense for us based on everything that has transpired over the past week or everything that has transpired over the past two weeks or what’s the workload of a particular guy? How much physical toll has his body taken? Is he dealing with a sore ankle?
know, Max Struce had his hand wrapped in ice last night following the game. So that could be something just to keep an eye on as we continue to go through the remainder of this road trip.
Jimmy Watkins (33:33.951)
I just think that’s one of the most, biggest misconceptions about the NBA right now is that the players are on board with the MP rest. That’s almost always a top-down decision. Like by top, mean, doctor-driven, doctor-driven decision coaches and coaches and GMs are on board with that because they know that the playoffs are when your legacies are secured as players, we frankly, when your job security is determined as a
as a general manager or a coach. So everything builds towards that. I just think that other than I’m trying to like maybe the, the Kawhi thing at the end of San Antonio, but like, that’s the only thing I can think of where like a team really wanted a player to play. And the player was like, no.
Chris (34:13.272)
Thank you.
Ethan Sands (34:20.654)
I think that’s a good point. Going into the last question of today’s podcast, and you guys know that I like to end with more of an NBA overarching point of view, maybe even a fun topic for you guys to discuss. Jimmy, this one’s going to start with you. A general NBA question. As we’re entering the final stretch of tanking teams trying to get losses, is there any sign of the NBA fixing that issue? Any chance?
will get something more fun like a bottom of the line standings tournament to compete for picks instead of a lottery. I’ve watched the Cavs through a rebuild and I’ll cheer for them rain or shine, but the NBA could be more creative on giving fans of rebuilding teams something to cheer for other than hoping they lose so they can draft some dude named Cooper who they never heard of before 2024.
Chris (34:51.426)
Thank
Jimmy Watkins (35:13.461)
That’s a great question. So unfortunately for both this subtexter and the NBA, the NBA believes that they’ve already done this. They’ve already tried. You know the play-in tournament? The play-in tournament that gives the 10 seed, the 9 seed, presumably I should say, gives people reason to chase the 10 seed and the 9 seed for the opportunity to get absolutely smacked by a 60-win team.
Chris (35:25.006)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (35:41.535)
You get to play two more games for the chance to get smacked by a 60-win team. Now, owners care about that because that’s a few more home game ticket, ticket incomes, ticket stub incomes that you can put in your pocket. But front offices, I’m choosing between the 10 seed and the opportunity to draft a player who can raise my ceiling in a meaningful way. It’s a no-brainer conversation. The other thing,
that the NBA has tried is that they have tried to disincentivize tanking by shuffling around the lottery odds. It used to be that the worst record in the NBA got a, I believe it was a 25 % chance at the number one pick and it descended from there. Maybe second place was around, I don’t even remember what second and third place, it was like 20 and 17 or something like that. And regardless, it was 25 at the top, I know that. Now the top three teams all get a 14 % chance and it,
dilutes from there and we’ve seen some wonky lottery moves already. The Atlanta Hawks last year dropped from or jumped from like mid to late lottery all the way to the number one pick. Tough break. It’s one of the worst top ends of the draft that we’ve seen in some time. Although Zachary Richache looks pretty good. He’s making a late push for rookie of the year here. But that’s part of the idea. To say that it has worked, that feels like a stretch to me.
I think that there’s more room for workshopping on that front. I don’t know that like the tournament that our subtext are proposed. The problem with that to me is that you’re asking guys on really bad teams to play for a draft pick who could potentially take their jobs. And that’s when the incentives get crisscrossed like that. I’m not sure.
Now, I mean, I’d like to think everyone’s a competitor and we’ll just try and they think they don’t think of it that way. They’re like, Hey, this guy can help us win and we’ll, fit real well together. But the reality is they’re on these bad teams. Nobody’s job is safe. So I don’t know. but yeah, overall. I guess obviously taking as an issue, some of the basketball is super, super ugly this time of year, but, yeah, the NBA thinks it’s already done what this subtext has, has described.
Chris (38:03.358)
The other thing is, and I totally understand, it sucks for fans. It is very, very difficult to be a fan of a rebuilding team. It’s very, very difficult to cover a rebuilding team because there’s just no guarantee that it gets better. Not in a year, not in five years, not even in 10 years. Sometimes you’re just riding the treadmill to nowhere. But like the one thing the NBA cannot do is tell teams,
how they think they should function or how they think they should operate. Every team owes it to themselves to do what they think is best for them. Now it doesn’t always mean that they’re right. It doesn’t always mean that they’re proven right, but they have to do these things that they think benefit them because it is about them. It’s about figuring out their own plan. It’s about figuring out their own path. It’s about figuring out
Okay, what kinds of things will benefit us from a quote-unquote tanking standpoint a quote-unquote Like playing time standpoint like for some of these teams that have no incentive to play for and no chance to win a championship Or no chance to go to the playoffs There’s value
in playing all these young guys and just getting them meaningful opportunities and reps and in-game experience and stuff like that. So if that comes at the expense of a veteran player, the NBA can’t say, don’t operate like that. Make different lineup decisions, make a different starting group decision. Like they can’t do that. Like nobody should have to.
Nobody should, there are rules obviously that the NBA has and these teams have to abide by the rules. But beyond that, nobody should have to turn to the NBA and say, is this okay that we’re doing? We think this is best for us, but what’s your view of what we’re doing?
Ethan Sands (40:09.264)
And I find it very interesting what this subtext says about like a tournament for the lottery. Right. I personally like that. Right. Because it’s not necessarily about the playoffs. not necessarily about being a seven to ten seeding game to fight your way into the playoffs, not just the postseason. Right. Words are hard in this industry. But I think it’s important to think about these things when you talk about how one.
Some players relish the opportunity to go to Cabo as soon as the regular season is over and get their rest started. But there’s obviously guys on these rebuilding teams that are one, sick of rebuilding, two, just want to hoop, just want to continue to build their resume, continue to build whatever. to like have the opportunity to play for your teammate. I think that’s an interesting idea. Like, my God, if you finish in the top.
of this lottery tournament, you can end up helping your team draft Cooper flag or Ace Bailey or whoever one of these guys you want to name, right? I just think it’s an interesting concept and I’m not saying necessarily that the NBA is going to do it, but this little tournament style, the what Adam Silver has taken from the European soccer leagues and all those different conversations that we’ve already had on this podcast. I don’t think.
He’s done necessarily with tournaments and trying to find ways to make things more entertaining for the fans. And this could be another way. So kudos to this subtext. You’ve definitely piqued my interest. I don’t know about these guys, but I definitely think that it’s an idea.
Jimmy Watkins (41:47.765)
The thing, so the other thing is, other thing, right, the other piece of pushback that would be on that tournament is that, that means the bad teams will stay bad, right? Like the idea that the draft, the reason the draft is the way it is, is so that we can keep parity alive and give bad teams a chance. Yeah, give them a fighting chance. I will say though, I’m very much in favor of
Chris (41:48.096)
I have to be careful.
Chris (42:03.501)
That’s right.
Chris (42:10.52)
Give those bad teams a fighting chance.
Jimmy Watkins (42:17.769)
Like, okay, if you pick in the top, however, pick a number, top five, top six, top three, so many years in a row, you just don’t get to be in it the next year. You just have to figure it out, all right? Because it’s one thing to reward in competency once, twice, maybe three times. But to keep doing it is something that I’m not, I’m not on board.
Chris (42:41.742)
I mean, since Adam Silver loves soccer so much, what about relegation? Just get rid of... See you later, Kings. Bye-bye, Washington Wizards.
Jimmy Watkins (42:46.421)
Relegation yeah This maverick carter league maverick carter league with the relegation. Yeah
Chris (42:56.95)
See ya, Charlotte Hornets.
Ethan Sands (42:59.216)
Hey, man, the charlotte horners just beat the Knicks tonight. So I don’t know they Come on gotta put some respect on little mellow balls name. Sorry. I’m just trying to rage bait Jimmy
Chris (43:11.118)
Yeah, sure. 18 wins. Congratulations on your 18 wins.
Jimmy Watkins (43:11.315)
The Mellow Ball, the Mellow Ball would be, the Mellow Ball is the MVP of of the NBA relegation league. I’m here for it. I’m here for it.
Ethan Sands (43:20.882)
I Mean hey, I mean they the Knicks were obviously without Jalen Brunson, but still I don’t know if you can Say that that that’s a loss that you still have marked on your calendar to play the Charlotte Hornets, but anyway that Yeah
Chris (43:36.782)
I mean, they didn’t just beat them. They smacked them. It was 15 to 98. If we want to have a conversation about MVP or first team All-NBA or second team All-NBA, the Knicks are helping make the case for Jalen Brunson here because they are just not nearly the same team without.
Jimmy Watkins (43:54.567)
Yeah. To our, to our tanking conversation.
To our tanking conversation too, the other day the Sixers played the Thunder and the Sixers, I think if the pick is like seven or above if they finish in the lottery, then the Thunder get their pick. So the Thunder rested or whatever injury managed, I don’t know, Shay, Jayla, everybody but Chet Holmgren and the Thunder still beat the Sixers by 33 points.
Chris (44:11.372)
Yeah.
Chris (44:19.156)
Everybody. Everybody.
Chris (44:25.932)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (44:27.925)
The Sixers aren’t a bad place.
Ethan Sands (44:28.21)
They’re doing the same thing for tomorrow’s game, believe, too. Not everybody, but they do have some significant pieces resting, like Lou Dort’s out, I believe. That’s the main one that comes to mind for me. I think Shea’s gonna play, but still.
Chris (44:42.584)
I mean, like, look, this is a product of rings culture. I mean, this started a while ago. If we have determined, the collective we, if we have determined that we are going to put so much weight on championships when it comes to evaluating team success, when it comes to goat conversations, when it comes to all of these different things in sports.
if the collective we have decided that the only thing that matters is a championship of some kind. And we’ve completely...
devalued 50 wins in the regular season or 55 wins in the regular season or 60 wins in the regular season. If we have gotten to that point, if we have made that determination as a society, as a sports loving society, then don’t be surprised when these teams view it the same kind of way and they make decisions based on what’s going to give them a best chance of winning a championship. mean, Luka Doncic was in the locker room.
Last night following a game that the Lakers played and Jared Vanderbilt was asked about like what the Lakers have to accomplish down the stretch of the season and he answered the way that he answered and Luca chimed in from a locker over and said rest. Like everybody knows the stakes here. Everybody wants to be at their best in the playoffs and play their best in the playoffs because if they don’t
Like nobody’s gonna care about the 30 points per game that you put up in the regular season. They’re gonna be like, empty stats. Can’t do it on the playoff stage. sorry, you’re a loser because you didn’t win a championship. You know what I mean? Like that’s what we’ve all decided. So of course these teams are going to try and put themselves in the best physical and mental condition going into that time of year.
Jimmy Watkins (46:40.137)
You can’t devalue 55 wins if they aren’t accompanied by a conference finals appearance or better, and then wag your finger at some, you should have gone for 41 wins. Like, no, you have to pick a lane here.
Ethan Sands (46:55.824)
All right, guys, just to add to the point that I was making it about or that we were making about the Oklahoma City Thunder resting players, Jalen Williams is also resting for tomorrow’s game or whatever the injury. Yeah, right. He has a right hip strain. I apologize. He is out for the tomorrow’s game. That’s what I meant to say. And ironically enough, they are playing the Charlotte Hornets. But another game going on right now that I think is interesting.
Chris (47:07.352)
Thank
Jimmy Watkins (47:07.497)
He’s not resting, he’s hurt, he’s been hurt.
Chris (47:10.368)
Yeah, he’s been hurt.
Jimmy Watkins (47:23.813)
winning streak of the year for the mellow ball upcoming.
Ethan Sands (47:29.117)
The Pacers and the Brooklyn Nets are currently playing in an overtime game as well I think it’s 95 94 Pacers as I checked my phone with like 245 left in the in overtime So I don’t know man I really think everything is a toss-up outside of like the top two seeds In both the Eastern and Western Conference in the Western Conference is just a toss-up outside of the OKC Thunder but anyway
Chris (47:56.012)
Let me just say, March basketball, man, March basketball leads to some really wonky results. It happens every single year. And don’t be surprised if it continues in the final two or three weeks. And don’t be surprised if the Cavs just lay an egg against some team down the stretch that you’re like, my God, how? Are you serious? Like they are so significantly better, but like motivation is different. These guys are exhausted.
March basketball yields wonky results all the time. And just, that’s why I say that you can’t always put so much stock into the time of year. And like, there’s obviously this conversation about peaking at the right time and playing your best going into the playoffs or whatever. But there shouldn’t be more weight attached to this time of year than there is October, November, and December.
Because, like I said, motivation is very, very different for every single team.
Ethan Sands (49:01.072)
Alrighty, with all that being said, that’ll wrap up another rendition of the Hey Chris episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your questions for our weekly Hey Chris episode. And if you want to get a shout out on the podcast, this is the way to do it as well. To do so,
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